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Greg's avatar

I personally like the idea of more good. And I accept this assertion as true: “The key point: EA is only asking for a modest subset of your ‘subagents’—far from all of them—to be guided by impartial beneficence.” But I also know that there have been hyperbolic EA advocates—or people who claim to wear the EA hat—who do sound like they are advocating for a destructive approach to some current systems, who do say out loud that everyone's moral claim is equal, and that therefore inequity must be corrected. And so the response to those advocates, whose extremism some find objectionable, might be “that sounds like rigid, programmatic utilitarianism—not merely a theoretical framework—and I have problems with that.” Related to that is another troublesome, practical question: who decides who benefits? And at whose expense? I know these are not new questions for utilitarianism, but they become immediately front and center in this context. They are implicitly entangled, so maybe not all “schmotte-and-bailey.”

So, by all means, in the pursuit of “more good,” let’s have the reasonable conversations that promote the greatest good, starting with how we define that. For me, JS Mill got it right (though I think liberty is more than mere method; it is also a benefit in and of itself), and too many modern utilitarians seem to have drifted from his synthesis. And some EA proponents sound downright hostile to the concept of individual liberty. I find their lack of faith in liberty troubling. And so it goes.

Calion's avatar

>This is, I think, the exact opposite of what’s going on. EAs typically want to discuss, and get people on board with, moderate beneficentrism. That’s the ask — not anything like full-blown utilitarianism.

No. It’s a foot in the door. Now, I absolutely grasp that you may not realize that! But “please act according to my moral principles; it’s fine if you don’t accept them, so long as you embrace them in practice” isn’t a genuinely tenable position. If people act according to your moral principles, they will of course be drawn into your moral position—how could they not? They’re acting for the reasons you want them to! Perhaps only tepidly at first, but of course “at first” doesn’t remain “at first”; you’re certainly not going to say “okay, you gave $5 to the cause of helping shrimp—your moral duty is discharged; thanks, goodbye!” No, you’re going to say, “Yes, that was good, now of course you wish to do *more* good, right?” and so people get gradually roped into your moral worldview.

It’s as if a church said, “here, come help out with our church charity project. You’re not joining our religion, just doing a good thing!” And on the surface, that’s true. But now they know who you are, and will, unless you make a definite decision to break ties, continue to exert gentle pressure to bring you into the fold. That is, indeed, why these church charity projects exist, to a large extent.

This is just how humans *are*. They want those around them—everyone really—to share their moral values, and will use whatever means, subtle or overt, gentle or forceful, to do so.

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