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Bentham's Bulldog's avatar

As I've mentioned before, I think there's an even simpler version of the puzzle that has the advantage of *actually being explainable in conversation*. I think when we discussed it though you mentioned thinking it had some small disadvantage (which might be right!) But the core idea is as follows.

Imagine three states of affairs:

1) Person A kills one person to stop B and C from killing one person each.

2) Person A kills one person indiscriminately. B and C do not kill.

3) B and C kill indiscriminately.

Clearly 1>2>3. So then the third party prefers the state of affairs with one killing to stop two killings to the one where 2 killings happen. But if one prefers a state of affairs where some agent acts in some way to one in which they don't, then it seems they prefer the action.

I think this argument is basically totally decisive. It shows that deontologists have to be quiet in the sense that you describe. But quiet deontology is hugely problematic. First of all, it's just wildly counterintuitive that God should be sitting in heaven hoping that people do the wrong thing.

Second, as you note, it seems that hoping is tied up with all sorts of other commitments--e.g. what you should vote for. So the deontologist shouldn't vote to stop the killing and organ harvesting or pushing people off bridges.

But things get even weirder! Presumably if you want X to happen, you shouldn't stop X. But deontologists would generally be pretty uncomfortable thinking that you shouldn't stop killings to save multiple lives. The person going around killing and harvesting organs should be stopped if deontology is true.

Similarly, should you try to persuade them out of it? If you should want a person to X, then you shouldn't try to stop them out of Xing. So then if your utilitarian friend asks if they should kill to save lives, the deontologist should say: "yes." They should even lie--for lying is worth saving multiple lives.

At this point, deontology begins to look weirdly egoistic. You want everyone else to breach the moral norms--you just don't want to get *your* hands dirty! You even should trick them into following it.

Should you then hope that you do the wrong thing in the future? Either answer is weird. If so, that is pretty insane. If not, then if you watch some person doing some wrong action in a screen and have dimension, whether you should hope they do the wrong thing will depend on whether they are you. Nuts!

Generally we think a big advantage of murder laws is that they deter crime. Deontologists must think that at least regarding murders that prevent multiple other lives saved, the fact that laws against those deter committing them is a bug not a feature. And this is so even though killings to save lives are morally wrong.

(Unrelated: this argument was one of the things that got me seriously thinking about ethics. I remember puzzling over it for a long time--and thinking it illustrated both how to do good ethics and what was wrong with deontology. It inspired a lot of other arguments against deontology for quite a while. I can't tell if this or you 2-D semantic argument against moral naturalism is my favorite argument from you).

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Gabe's avatar

I really enjoy the paradox paper. I do find it quite counterintuitive to think about what we have reason to prefer and what we have reason to do coming apart in this radical way. I take it the deontologist has to bite this bullet or show we shouldn't always prefer better states of affairs (or perhaps deny that we have reasons for any preferences?). Showing we shouldn't always prefer the best seems preferable (heh) to me, since I'm already convinced I have reason to prefer a case in which, say, my child lives and two strangers die. But there is something weird about saying, when nothing that we (appropriately) care about from the agent-relative perspective is at stake, we shouldn't always prefer the impersonally better outcome/state of affairs. I take this is something the failed rescue vs successful rescue is meant to bring out. I'm not entirely sure what to say. I look forward to seeing the responses to the paper.

I do think you're being unfair to the quiet deontologist when you make it sound that what they 'want' is to avoid acting wrongly (i.e. "quiet deontologists want the best outcome to happen, they just don’t want to be personally responsible for it"). Quite deontology, I take it, is the position that what you have reason to want comes apart from what you have reason to do. It seems then that quiet deontologists have reason to prefer that they act wrongly. They just can't do it! Now, this strikes me as very weird. But do we sometimes have such preferences? One could imagine a judge who is duty-bound to condemn his son to death and does so, but wholeheartedly prefers the world in which he fails to do his duty. How weird is that? I don't know.

It is worth noting, though, that we might have very strong reason for preferring that the public sphere not be dominated by consequentialist thinking, even if we are quiet deontologists--it might be that unchecked consequentialism could lead to, or simply constitute, a worse state of affairs. So in that regard, the quiet deontologist may not be condemned to acting against what she should prefer.

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